1. [2017-11-21T12:45:37-0500] • Halian: has been taking Chem I this term, and it has gotten him rather aimlessly (so far) wondering how chemical abbreviations and formulae look in the Āirumāli abugida
  2. [2017-11-21T12:49:02-0500] <Halian> nor can I look at real-life South Asian abugidae for guidance on this matter as they all crib the Latin script for chemistry because Europe
  3. [2017-11-21T12:50:57-0500] <Halian> also I have to come up with names for at least 118 elements >.<
  4. [2017-11-21T17:22:23-0500] <Melvar> < Halian> also I have to come up with names for at least 118 elements >.< – It might be instructive for some of them to look at their etymologies in familiar languages.
  5. [2017-11-21T21:24:43-0500] <Halian> Melvar: That will actually actively hinder me, since I'm making an alien languages
  6. [2017-11-21T23:17:52-0500] <xeizlif> Halian: create a mapping from number to syllable
  7. [2017-11-21T23:18:15-0500] • Halian: quantizes xeizlif's spin
  8. [2017-11-21T23:18:38-0500] <Halian> xeizlif: maybe, that might work better for undiscovered elements, but that's what IUPAC does so the safir can't do it >.<
  9. [2017-11-21T23:18:59-0500] <xeizlif> Why can't IUPAC and the safir both do the same thing independently?
  10. [2017-11-21T23:19:10-0500] <xeizlif> You'll have a different mapping
  11. [2017-11-21T23:19:23-0500] <xeizlif> You could even use a different number base
  12. [2017-11-21T23:19:34-0500] <xeizlif> even different to the safir default base
  13. [2017-11-21T23:21:49-0500] <xeizlif> sure is a bummer that there's a gap in periodic groups for the first few elements or the group could be encoded in the name too
  14. [2017-11-21T23:21:59-0500] <xeizlif> well, you could instead organise by group
  15. [2017-11-21T23:22:09-0500] <xeizlif> er
  16. [2017-11-21T23:22:13-0500] <xeizlif> s/group/period/
  17. [2017-11-21T23:22:26-0500] <xeizlif> wait shit i'm not sure not
  18. [2017-11-21T23:22:27-0500] <xeizlif> *now
  19. [2017-11-21T23:23:15-0500] <xeizlif> right the first time, groups. And successive periods change the {pre,suf}fix
  20. [2017-11-21T23:29:17-0500] <Halian> Because they're aliens
  21. [2017-11-21T23:29:53-0500] • Halian: notes that their default method of organizing elements is what we know as the ADOMAH periodic table, so all his arguments must go down the fucking toilet
  22. [2017-11-21T23:32:40-0500] <xeizlif> surely a race like the safir would be similarly systematic as IUPAC, minus the times when IUPAC is less than systematic
  23. [2017-11-21T23:48:11-0500] <Haltop> xeizlif, they'd be as systematic, but I'm trying to avoid them doing the same thing as humans
  24. [2017-11-21T23:48:44-0500] <Haltop> because, being technologically advanced as they are, the time when they would have settled on the method for naming undiscovered elements would long predate human contact
  25. [2017-11-21T23:48:47-0500] <xeizlif> well, humans don't name by group (outside of historicalisms like "eka-radium") so do that :P
  26. [2017-11-21T23:48:55-0500] <Haltop> Ah yes, I frogot all about that
  27. [2017-11-21T23:49:18-0500] <Haltop> That said, there might not *be* any undiscovered elements for them? Part of me thinks that by now they'd have discovered or synthesized all 173 elements?
  28. [2017-11-21T23:49:36-0500] <xeizlif> I am not convinced there are a finite number of elements
  29. [2017-11-21T23:50:05-0500] <Haltop> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_periodic_table#Relativistic_Dirac_equation why I say "all 173"
  30. [2017-11-21T23:50:32-0500] <xeizlif> oh, okay, that's new to me
  31. [2017-11-21T23:51:04-0500] <Haltop> (137) would be called feynmanium by at least humans, due to the folk legend of Feynman predicting the end of the periodic table at Z = 137
  32. [2017-11-21T23:52:52-0500] <Haltop> Unrelated: I wonder how exactly you read off that equation without being ambiguous
  33. [2017-11-21T23:56:27-0500] <Haltop> xeizlif, or they could name them quantum-mechanically, so e.g. oganesson would be 7,1,+1,+1/2-ium
  34. [2017-11-21T23:58:58-0500] <xeizlif> that'd be neat
  35. [2017-11-22T00:01:18-0500] <Haltop> Maybe the quantum-mechanic (or in their words harmonic-mechanic) system when undiscovered, and the grouply system when discovered or synthesized but not formally named
  36. [2017-11-22T00:02:57-0500] <@nalkri> Naming them by shell sounds cool
  37. [2017-11-22T00:03:06-0500] <Haltop> So 7p^6-IUM?
  38. [2017-11-22T00:03:10-0500] <@nalkri> And logical if they do a lot of quantum mechanical engineering
  39. [2017-11-22T00:03:15-0500] <Haltop> *-caps
  40. [2017-11-22T00:03:32-0500] • Haltop: wonders what electron orbitals would look like in a universe with four spatial dimensions
  41. [2017-11-22T00:04:03-0500] <Haltop> because a fanfic for a webcomic that I read that I once read had the relevant race of psychics be four-dimensional (but still humanoid in 3D) and I thought that was pretty neat XP
  42. [2017-11-22T00:07:11-0500] <Haltop> But yeah, for some reason I think hyperspace and harmonic mechanics would be closely linked, even though I have no explanation for said link :P
  43. [2017-11-22T00:09:22-0500] <xeizlif> have you read Flatland? I should get around to it one day
  44. [2017-11-22T00:11:47-0500] <@nalkri> Flatland is well worth the read
  45. [2017-11-22T00:11:53-0500] <@nalkri> And pretty short, you can read it now
  46. [2017-11-22T00:12:27-0500] <xeizlif> https://archive.org/details/flatlandromanceo00abbouoft woot is IS on archive.org
  47. [2017-11-22T00:20:43-0500] <xeizlif> I wish I knew how to toe the line between premature optimisation and propping up a dying codebase
  48. [2017-11-22T00:22:02-0500] <Haltop> Brainwaves I had just now while making a sandwich:
  49. [2017-11-22T00:22:28-0500] <xeizlif> I sketched out some notes about how to improve a test project to make working on it less shitty and then realised it basically amounted to writing a compiler for a new computational model
  50. [2017-11-22T00:22:44-0500] <Haltop> (1) In Airumali, at least, they might decline numbers into specific cases instead of using words correpsonding to equations, e.g. "two two-INSTC four be.3P" instead of "two plus two is four"
  51. [2017-11-22T00:23:06-0500] <Haltop> (2) Temples to Kaena (the safir goddess of knowledge) might be very bit as capable as centers of scientific research as universities
  52. [2017-11-22T00:23:32-0500] <Haltop> (3) Radical followers of Vala (the safir goddess of love and fertility and nature) could well be (stereotyped as) luddite terrorists, or have been at some point
  53. [2017-11-22T00:23:56-0500] <Haltop> I haven't read Flatland in its entirety yet :o
  54. [2017-11-22T00:26:04-0500] <Haltop> two two-INSTC two-ACC two-DAT two-BEN "2 + 2 - 2 x 2 / 2" = I don't know yet because the safir use a different order of operations which I haven't set yet >w<
  55. [2017-11-22T00:26:33-0500] <Haltop> as a result of this convention, they use reverse Polish notation, so it'd actually be writ "2 2 + 2 - 2 x 2 /"
  56. [2017-11-22T00:26:54-0500] <@nalkri> Haltop: you could do something like For...
  57. [2017-11-22T00:27:05-0500] <@nalkri> Oh sorry, I should finish reading logs before I start typing :þ
  58. [2017-11-22T00:27:14-0500] <Haltop> Lol
  59. [2017-11-22T00:27:59-0500] <@nalkri> But yeah, so you can encode operators into numbers and do it stackwise, but would you end up with highly case productive systems?
  60. [2017-11-22T00:28:09-0500] <@nalkri> Like generating a case for each function?
  61. [2017-11-22T00:28:55-0500] <Haltop> Well, more assigning an extant case (of which there are quite a few) to each function
  62. [2017-11-22T00:29:25-0500] <xeizlif> how does one have a *normal* idea
  63. [2017-11-22T00:29:33-0500] <Haltop> eh?
  64. [2017-11-22T00:29:38-0500] <@nalkri> There are a lot of operators/functions though, and more are generated all the time
  65. [2017-11-22T00:29:43-0500] <xeizlif> like something that isn't "write a high performance renderer"
  66. [2017-11-22T00:29:46-0500] <Haltop> Ah
  67. [2017-11-22T00:29:51-0500] <Haltop> nalkri, not all of them would get cases, unfortunately
  68. [2017-11-22T00:30:14-0500] <@nalkri> xeizlif: we're discussing a species that thinks Forth is the normal way to write equations, why do you think we know what normal ideas are?
  69. [2017-11-22T00:30:25-0500] <xeizlif> Humans?
  70. [2017-11-22T00:30:32-0500] <xeizlif> er
  71. [2017-11-22T00:30:36-0500] <xeizlif> Upside down humans?
  72. [2017-11-22T00:30:36-0500] <@nalkri> Humans have been trained not to think this unfortunately
  73. [2017-11-22T00:30:43-0500] <xeizlif> polish notation tho
  74. [2017-11-22T00:31:30-0500] <Haltop> RPN, not PN
  75. [2017-11-22T00:31:39-0500] <@nalkri> Halian: I'm working on getting cases/tenses working with relativity and QM
  76. [2017-11-22T00:31:58-0500] <@nalkri> Lisp is fully parenthasised PN which is why we're allowed variadic functions
  77. [2017-11-22T00:32:03-0500] <Haltop> Could be worse... the loroi (the main race in the webcomic I mentioned earlier) copied their way to FTL travel without ever developing a full concept of zero
  78. [2017-11-22T00:32:17-0500] <@nalkri> Ouch, I'm not using FTL because I can't make it work
  79. [2017-11-22T00:34:25-0500] <Haltop> I wonder what we eat or drink that could plausibly be poisonous to safir (who have a mainly humanoid biochemistry but hemocyanin-based blood)
  80. [2017-11-22T00:35:12-0500] <xeizlif> Haltop: caffeine?
  81. [2017-11-22T00:35:13-0500] <Haltop> nalkri, re Forth and stacks in general: I kinda like the idea of the safir's "birdsong" language (they have syrinxes instead of larynxes, and no it's not Airumali) has a stack mechani
  82. [2017-11-22T00:35:40-0500] <Haltop> xeizlif, maybe, but it would ahve to be in large quantities in order to not contradict prior roleplaying XD
  83. [2017-11-22T00:35:50-0500] <Haltop> Either that or the barkeep knows to give them caffeine-free versions of whatever they ask for
  84. [2017-11-22T00:36:11-0500] <Haltop> Funnily enough I was just thinking about caffeine being bad for some variety of blue elf or another <w<
  85. [2017-11-22T00:36:13-0500] <xeizlif> humans are kind of in a goldilocks zone for caffeine
  86. [2017-11-22T00:36:21-0500] <@nalkri> I want a syrinx
  87. [2017-11-22T00:36:23-0500] <Haltop> Oh shit, chocolate
  88. [2017-11-22T00:36:24-0500] <Haltop> nalkri, same
  89. [2017-11-22T00:36:39-0500] <Haltop> especially a safir one, since it can produce frequencies that are outside our hearing range >w<
  90. [2017-11-22T00:36:44-0500] <xeizlif> where the acetylcholinesterase inhibition and glycine antagonism causes procognitive effects instead of seizures and spasms
  91. [2017-11-22T00:37:07-0500] <Haltop> SO either safir have mastered caffeine-free chocolate, or they've evolved a tolerance for caffeine
  92. [2017-11-22T00:37:27-0500] <Haltop> If possible, the latter isn't implausible; Western humans have evolved lactose tolerance in adulthood
  93. [2017-11-22T00:37:35-0500] <Haltop> *probably isn't
  94. [2017-11-22T00:37:45-0500] <xeizlif> I should compile a list of receptor affinities for lots of chemicals between rodent, feline and human
  95. [2017-11-22T00:37:49-0500] <Haltop> Ooo
  96. [2017-11-22T00:37:56-0500] <Haltop> That would be useful
  97. [2017-11-22T00:38:04-0500] <xeizlif> mmmm
  98. [2017-11-22T00:38:27-0500] • Haltop: makes a note of this for the next time he plays either of his ancient characters
  99. [2017-11-22T00:38:57-0500] <Haltop> This is interesting... this guy is building a house out of hay bales covered in stucco
  100. [2017-11-22T00:39:34-0500] <Haltop> Re math cases: exponentials are absolutive, also, and roots are expressed as exponentials
  101. [2017-11-22T00:39:38-0500] <Haltop> that covers basic math
  102. [2017-11-22T00:39:50-0500] <xeizlif> nice
  103. [2017-11-22T00:40:26-0500] <xeizlif> I've thought about how much you could cut out of mathematical notation using equivalence rules
  104. [2017-11-22T00:41:00-0500] <xeizlif> what if there was no such thing as division but you could multiply by something raised to -1
  105. [2017-11-22T00:41:33-0500] <xeizlif> x * 1/y = x / y
  106. [2017-11-22T00:41:35-0500] <@nalkri> adessive and ablative work for aditiona nd subtraction
  107. [2017-11-22T00:41:36-0500] <Haltop> 🤔
  108. [2017-11-22T00:41:49-0500] <Haltop> nalkri, I forgot about the ablative, especially since I have it
  109. [2017-11-22T00:42:09-0500] <@nalkri> But I might be biased because if we were doing this to protofinnic this is what would happen
  110. [2017-11-22T00:46:36-0500] <Haltop> You can use either INSTC or ADE for addition, but the former is usually addition while the latter is usually summation, e.g. "n 1-NOM forever-ADE be.3PL 1-NOM n-NOM r-ABS 4S-BEN" = sigma(n=1..inf) 1/(n^r)
  111. [2017-11-22T03:52:36-0500] <xeizlif> Mlah. I think my brain has become convinced that caffeine IS adenosine
  112. [2017-11-22T03:55:47-0500] <xeizlif> That's not really possible. But perhaps the pathway that would have been activated by adenosine binding the receptor is being activated anyway, or I've upregulated adenosine receptors to an insane extent
  113. [2017-11-22T03:56:40-0500] <Halian> That reminds me
  114. [2017-11-22T03:56:49-0500] <Halian> Chocolate has only trace amounts of caffeine, and I was thinking of theobromine :x
  115. [2017-11-22T03:57:34-0500] <xeizlif> oh, I'd have pointed that out if I realised you WEREN'T talking about theobromine
  116. [2017-11-22T03:57:58-0500] <Halian> I wonder if the trace amount of caffeine in chocolate would be enough to cause seizures in a safir
  117. [2017-11-22T03:58:28-0500] <xeizlif> It doesn't really have much theobromine either tbh, people like to overestimate the psychoactive effect of chocolate
  118. [2017-11-22T03:58:43-0500] <xeizlif> or at least mass-produced chocolate, even most dark, doesn't have much
  119. [2017-11-22T03:59:46-0500] <Halian> IIRC most of the theobromine is destroyed during roasting
  120. [2017-11-22T04:00:03-0500] <xeizlif> I vaguely recall that the problem with dogs and chocolate isn't that they have seizures but that it fucks their liver up, so there's that too
  121. [2017-11-22T04:00:06-0500] <Halian> And since the safir psychic I imagine seizures are at least 50% extra not fun for the same great price
  122. [2017-11-22T04:00:08-0500] <Halian> Ah
  123. [2017-11-22T04:00:20-0500] <Halian> are psychic*
  124. [2017-11-22T04:01:16-0500] <xeizlif> "Your Dog Ate Chocolate. Now What?
  125. [2017-11-22T04:01:17-0500] <xeizlif> Typically, your dog will vomit on his own. If not, your vet might want you to give him hydrogen peroxide to make him throw up -- 1 tablespoon for every 20 pounds, Wismer says. You can use a turkey baster or a medicine dropper to give him the liquid."
  126. [2017-11-22T04:01:29-0500] <xeizlif> I fucking hope anyone reading this doesn't have concentrated H2O2
  127. [2017-11-22T04:01:58-0500] <xeizlif> they never specified the concentration but they probably mean a very dilute solution
  128. [2017-11-22T04:02:42-0500] <xeizlif> I used to have conc. H2O2 but the jar blew up, obviously because it degraded and wasn't vented >_>
  129. [2017-11-22T04:03:23-0500] <xeizlif> luckily I did forsee that possibly being a thing and it was stored by itself in polyethylene so it was just wasted rather than dangerous
  130. [2017-11-22T04:04:00-0500] <Halian> xeizlif: they probably mean "the kind that you get in the store in brown bottles", which is likely dilute for safety purposes
  131. [2017-11-22T04:04:44-0500] <xeizlif> yeah
  132. [2017-11-22T04:18:12-0500] <xeizlif> Halian: I was wrong, it's not their liver. They end up with kidney damage probably from the diuretic effects. And they will have seizures, but it seems like they're more typical adrenergic stimulant overdose symptoms given they usually end up shaking, diarrhoea and developing hyperthermia first
  133. [2017-11-22T04:18:49-0500] <xeizlif> so many sites that are titled "Why Chocolate is Bad for Dogs" and then end up basically saying 'Chocolate is bad for dogs.'
  134. [2017-11-22T04:18:57-0500] <xeizlif> without saying why at all
  135. [2017-11-22T04:19:14-0500] <xeizlif> or 'because theobromine'
  136. [2017-11-22T04:20:35-0500] <xeizlif> hard to tell but it seems like the acetylcholinesterase inhibitor and glycine antagonist effects are mostly a problem for small creatures / those that are extremely sensitive to excitotoxicity