- [2017-11-21T12:45:37-0500] • Halian: has been taking Chem I this term, and it has gotten him rather aimlessly (so far) wondering how chemical abbreviations and formulae look in the Āirumāli abugida
- [2017-11-21T12:49:02-0500] <Halian> nor can I look at real-life South Asian abugidae for guidance on this matter as they all crib the Latin script for chemistry because Europe
- [2017-11-21T12:50:57-0500] <Halian> also I have to come up with names for at least 118 elements >.<
- [2017-11-21T17:22:23-0500] <Melvar> < Halian> also I have to come up with names for at least 118 elements >.< – It might be instructive for some of them to look at their etymologies in familiar languages.
- [2017-11-21T21:24:43-0500] <Halian> Melvar: That will actually actively hinder me, since I'm making an alien languages
- [2017-11-21T23:17:52-0500] <xeizlif> Halian: create a mapping from number to syllable
- [2017-11-21T23:18:15-0500] • Halian: quantizes xeizlif's spin
- [2017-11-21T23:18:38-0500] <Halian> xeizlif: maybe, that might work better for undiscovered elements, but that's what IUPAC does so the safir can't do it >.<
- [2017-11-21T23:18:59-0500] <xeizlif> Why can't IUPAC and the safir both do the same thing independently?
- [2017-11-21T23:19:10-0500] <xeizlif> You'll have a different mapping
- [2017-11-21T23:19:23-0500] <xeizlif> You could even use a different number base
- [2017-11-21T23:19:34-0500] <xeizlif> even different to the safir default base
- [2017-11-21T23:21:49-0500] <xeizlif> sure is a bummer that there's a gap in periodic groups for the first few elements or the group could be encoded in the name too
- [2017-11-21T23:21:59-0500] <xeizlif> well, you could instead organise by group
- [2017-11-21T23:22:09-0500] <xeizlif> er
- [2017-11-21T23:22:13-0500] <xeizlif> s/group/period/
- [2017-11-21T23:22:26-0500] <xeizlif> wait shit i'm not sure not
- [2017-11-21T23:22:27-0500] <xeizlif> *now
- [2017-11-21T23:23:15-0500] <xeizlif> right the first time, groups. And successive periods change the {pre,suf}fix
- [2017-11-21T23:29:17-0500] <Halian> Because they're aliens
- [2017-11-21T23:29:53-0500] • Halian: notes that their default method of organizing elements is what we know as the ADOMAH periodic table, so all his arguments must go down the fucking toilet
- [2017-11-21T23:32:40-0500] <xeizlif> surely a race like the safir would be similarly systematic as IUPAC, minus the times when IUPAC is less than systematic
- [2017-11-21T23:48:11-0500] <Haltop> xeizlif, they'd be as systematic, but I'm trying to avoid them doing the same thing as humans
- [2017-11-21T23:48:44-0500] <Haltop> because, being technologically advanced as they are, the time when they would have settled on the method for naming undiscovered elements would long predate human contact
- [2017-11-21T23:48:47-0500] <xeizlif> well, humans don't name by group (outside of historicalisms like "eka-radium") so do that :P
- [2017-11-21T23:48:55-0500] <Haltop> Ah yes, I frogot all about that
- [2017-11-21T23:49:18-0500] <Haltop> That said, there might not *be* any undiscovered elements for them? Part of me thinks that by now they'd have discovered or synthesized all 173 elements?
- [2017-11-21T23:49:36-0500] <xeizlif> I am not convinced there are a finite number of elements
- [2017-11-21T23:50:05-0500] <Haltop> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_periodic_table#Relativistic_Dirac_equation why I say "all 173"
- [2017-11-21T23:50:32-0500] <xeizlif> oh, okay, that's new to me
- [2017-11-21T23:51:04-0500] <Haltop> (137) would be called feynmanium by at least humans, due to the folk legend of Feynman predicting the end of the periodic table at Z = 137
- [2017-11-21T23:52:52-0500] <Haltop> Unrelated: I wonder how exactly you read off that equation without being ambiguous
- [2017-11-21T23:56:27-0500] <Haltop> xeizlif, or they could name them quantum-mechanically, so e.g. oganesson would be 7,1,+1,+1/2-ium
- [2017-11-21T23:58:58-0500] <xeizlif> that'd be neat
- [2017-11-22T00:01:18-0500] <Haltop> Maybe the quantum-mechanic (or in their words harmonic-mechanic) system when undiscovered, and the grouply system when discovered or synthesized but not formally named
- [2017-11-22T00:02:57-0500] <@nalkri> Naming them by shell sounds cool
- [2017-11-22T00:03:06-0500] <Haltop> So 7p^6-IUM?
- [2017-11-22T00:03:10-0500] <@nalkri> And logical if they do a lot of quantum mechanical engineering
- [2017-11-22T00:03:15-0500] <Haltop> *-caps
- [2017-11-22T00:03:32-0500] • Haltop: wonders what electron orbitals would look like in a universe with four spatial dimensions
- [2017-11-22T00:04:03-0500] <Haltop> because a fanfic for a webcomic that I read that I once read had the relevant race of psychics be four-dimensional (but still humanoid in 3D) and I thought that was pretty neat XP
- [2017-11-22T00:07:11-0500] <Haltop> But yeah, for some reason I think hyperspace and harmonic mechanics would be closely linked, even though I have no explanation for said link :P
- [2017-11-22T00:09:22-0500] <xeizlif> have you read Flatland? I should get around to it one day
- [2017-11-22T00:11:47-0500] <@nalkri> Flatland is well worth the read
- [2017-11-22T00:11:53-0500] <@nalkri> And pretty short, you can read it now
- [2017-11-22T00:12:27-0500] <xeizlif> https://archive.org/details/flatlandromanceo00abbouoft woot is IS on archive.org
- [2017-11-22T00:20:43-0500] <xeizlif> I wish I knew how to toe the line between premature optimisation and propping up a dying codebase
- [2017-11-22T00:22:02-0500] <Haltop> Brainwaves I had just now while making a sandwich:
- [2017-11-22T00:22:28-0500] <xeizlif> I sketched out some notes about how to improve a test project to make working on it less shitty and then realised it basically amounted to writing a compiler for a new computational model
- [2017-11-22T00:22:44-0500] <Haltop> (1) In Airumali, at least, they might decline numbers into specific cases instead of using words correpsonding to equations, e.g. "two two-INSTC four be.3P" instead of "two plus two is four"
- [2017-11-22T00:23:06-0500] <Haltop> (2) Temples to Kaena (the safir goddess of knowledge) might be very bit as capable as centers of scientific research as universities
- [2017-11-22T00:23:32-0500] <Haltop> (3) Radical followers of Vala (the safir goddess of love and fertility and nature) could well be (stereotyped as) luddite terrorists, or have been at some point
- [2017-11-22T00:23:56-0500] <Haltop> I haven't read Flatland in its entirety yet :o
- [2017-11-22T00:26:04-0500] <Haltop> two two-INSTC two-ACC two-DAT two-BEN "2 + 2 - 2 x 2 / 2" = I don't know yet because the safir use a different order of operations which I haven't set yet >w<
- [2017-11-22T00:26:33-0500] <Haltop> as a result of this convention, they use reverse Polish notation, so it'd actually be writ "2 2 + 2 - 2 x 2 /"
- [2017-11-22T00:26:54-0500] <@nalkri> Haltop: you could do something like For...
- [2017-11-22T00:27:05-0500] <@nalkri> Oh sorry, I should finish reading logs before I start typing :þ
- [2017-11-22T00:27:14-0500] <Haltop> Lol
- [2017-11-22T00:27:59-0500] <@nalkri> But yeah, so you can encode operators into numbers and do it stackwise, but would you end up with highly case productive systems?
- [2017-11-22T00:28:09-0500] <@nalkri> Like generating a case for each function?
- [2017-11-22T00:28:55-0500] <Haltop> Well, more assigning an extant case (of which there are quite a few) to each function
- [2017-11-22T00:29:25-0500] <xeizlif> how does one have a *normal* idea
- [2017-11-22T00:29:33-0500] <Haltop> eh?
- [2017-11-22T00:29:38-0500] <@nalkri> There are a lot of operators/functions though, and more are generated all the time
- [2017-11-22T00:29:43-0500] <xeizlif> like something that isn't "write a high performance renderer"
- [2017-11-22T00:29:46-0500] <Haltop> Ah
- [2017-11-22T00:29:51-0500] <Haltop> nalkri, not all of them would get cases, unfortunately
- [2017-11-22T00:30:14-0500] <@nalkri> xeizlif: we're discussing a species that thinks Forth is the normal way to write equations, why do you think we know what normal ideas are?
- [2017-11-22T00:30:25-0500] <xeizlif> Humans?
- [2017-11-22T00:30:32-0500] <xeizlif> er
- [2017-11-22T00:30:36-0500] <xeizlif> Upside down humans?
- [2017-11-22T00:30:36-0500] <@nalkri> Humans have been trained not to think this unfortunately
- [2017-11-22T00:30:43-0500] <xeizlif> polish notation tho
- [2017-11-22T00:31:30-0500] <Haltop> RPN, not PN
- [2017-11-22T00:31:39-0500] <@nalkri> Halian: I'm working on getting cases/tenses working with relativity and QM
- [2017-11-22T00:31:58-0500] <@nalkri> Lisp is fully parenthasised PN which is why we're allowed variadic functions
- [2017-11-22T00:32:03-0500] <Haltop> Could be worse... the loroi (the main race in the webcomic I mentioned earlier) copied their way to FTL travel without ever developing a full concept of zero
- [2017-11-22T00:32:17-0500] <@nalkri> Ouch, I'm not using FTL because I can't make it work
- [2017-11-22T00:34:25-0500] <Haltop> I wonder what we eat or drink that could plausibly be poisonous to safir (who have a mainly humanoid biochemistry but hemocyanin-based blood)
- [2017-11-22T00:35:12-0500] <xeizlif> Haltop: caffeine?
- [2017-11-22T00:35:13-0500] <Haltop> nalkri, re Forth and stacks in general: I kinda like the idea of the safir's "birdsong" language (they have syrinxes instead of larynxes, and no it's not Airumali) has a stack mechani
- [2017-11-22T00:35:40-0500] <Haltop> xeizlif, maybe, but it would ahve to be in large quantities in order to not contradict prior roleplaying XD
- [2017-11-22T00:35:50-0500] <Haltop> Either that or the barkeep knows to give them caffeine-free versions of whatever they ask for
- [2017-11-22T00:36:11-0500] <Haltop> Funnily enough I was just thinking about caffeine being bad for some variety of blue elf or another <w<
- [2017-11-22T00:36:13-0500] <xeizlif> humans are kind of in a goldilocks zone for caffeine
- [2017-11-22T00:36:21-0500] <@nalkri> I want a syrinx
- [2017-11-22T00:36:23-0500] <Haltop> Oh shit, chocolate
- [2017-11-22T00:36:24-0500] <Haltop> nalkri, same
- [2017-11-22T00:36:39-0500] <Haltop> especially a safir one, since it can produce frequencies that are outside our hearing range >w<
- [2017-11-22T00:36:44-0500] <xeizlif> where the acetylcholinesterase inhibition and glycine antagonism causes procognitive effects instead of seizures and spasms
- [2017-11-22T00:37:07-0500] <Haltop> SO either safir have mastered caffeine-free chocolate, or they've evolved a tolerance for caffeine
- [2017-11-22T00:37:27-0500] <Haltop> If possible, the latter isn't implausible; Western humans have evolved lactose tolerance in adulthood
- [2017-11-22T00:37:35-0500] <Haltop> *probably isn't
- [2017-11-22T00:37:45-0500] <xeizlif> I should compile a list of receptor affinities for lots of chemicals between rodent, feline and human
- [2017-11-22T00:37:49-0500] <Haltop> Ooo
- [2017-11-22T00:37:56-0500] <Haltop> That would be useful
- [2017-11-22T00:38:04-0500] <xeizlif> mmmm
- [2017-11-22T00:38:27-0500] • Haltop: makes a note of this for the next time he plays either of his ancient characters
- [2017-11-22T00:38:57-0500] <Haltop> This is interesting... this guy is building a house out of hay bales covered in stucco
- [2017-11-22T00:39:34-0500] <Haltop> Re math cases: exponentials are absolutive, also, and roots are expressed as exponentials
- [2017-11-22T00:39:38-0500] <Haltop> that covers basic math
- [2017-11-22T00:39:50-0500] <xeizlif> nice
- [2017-11-22T00:40:26-0500] <xeizlif> I've thought about how much you could cut out of mathematical notation using equivalence rules
- [2017-11-22T00:41:00-0500] <xeizlif> what if there was no such thing as division but you could multiply by something raised to -1
- [2017-11-22T00:41:33-0500] <xeizlif> x * 1/y = x / y
- [2017-11-22T00:41:35-0500] <@nalkri> adessive and ablative work for aditiona nd subtraction
- [2017-11-22T00:41:36-0500] <Haltop> 🤔
- [2017-11-22T00:41:49-0500] <Haltop> nalkri, I forgot about the ablative, especially since I have it
- [2017-11-22T00:42:09-0500] <@nalkri> But I might be biased because if we were doing this to protofinnic this is what would happen
- [2017-11-22T00:46:36-0500] <Haltop> You can use either INSTC or ADE for addition, but the former is usually addition while the latter is usually summation, e.g. "n 1-NOM forever-ADE be.3PL 1-NOM n-NOM r-ABS 4S-BEN" = sigma(n=1..inf) 1/(n^r)
- [2017-11-22T03:52:36-0500] <xeizlif> Mlah. I think my brain has become convinced that caffeine IS adenosine
- [2017-11-22T03:55:47-0500] <xeizlif> That's not really possible. But perhaps the pathway that would have been activated by adenosine binding the receptor is being activated anyway, or I've upregulated adenosine receptors to an insane extent
- [2017-11-22T03:56:40-0500] <Halian> That reminds me
- [2017-11-22T03:56:49-0500] <Halian> Chocolate has only trace amounts of caffeine, and I was thinking of theobromine :x
- [2017-11-22T03:57:34-0500] <xeizlif> oh, I'd have pointed that out if I realised you WEREN'T talking about theobromine
- [2017-11-22T03:57:58-0500] <Halian> I wonder if the trace amount of caffeine in chocolate would be enough to cause seizures in a safir
- [2017-11-22T03:58:28-0500] <xeizlif> It doesn't really have much theobromine either tbh, people like to overestimate the psychoactive effect of chocolate
- [2017-11-22T03:58:43-0500] <xeizlif> or at least mass-produced chocolate, even most dark, doesn't have much
- [2017-11-22T03:59:46-0500] <Halian> IIRC most of the theobromine is destroyed during roasting
- [2017-11-22T04:00:03-0500] <xeizlif> I vaguely recall that the problem with dogs and chocolate isn't that they have seizures but that it fucks their liver up, so there's that too
- [2017-11-22T04:00:06-0500] <Halian> And since the safir psychic I imagine seizures are at least 50% extra not fun for the same great price
- [2017-11-22T04:00:08-0500] <Halian> Ah
- [2017-11-22T04:00:20-0500] <Halian> are psychic*
- [2017-11-22T04:01:16-0500] <xeizlif> "Your Dog Ate Chocolate. Now What?
- [2017-11-22T04:01:17-0500] <xeizlif> Typically, your dog will vomit on his own. If not, your vet might want you to give him hydrogen peroxide to make him throw up -- 1 tablespoon for every 20 pounds, Wismer says. You can use a turkey baster or a medicine dropper to give him the liquid."
- [2017-11-22T04:01:29-0500] <xeizlif> I fucking hope anyone reading this doesn't have concentrated H2O2
- [2017-11-22T04:01:58-0500] <xeizlif> they never specified the concentration but they probably mean a very dilute solution
- [2017-11-22T04:02:42-0500] <xeizlif> I used to have conc. H2O2 but the jar blew up, obviously because it degraded and wasn't vented >_>
- [2017-11-22T04:03:23-0500] <xeizlif> luckily I did forsee that possibly being a thing and it was stored by itself in polyethylene so it was just wasted rather than dangerous
- [2017-11-22T04:04:00-0500] <Halian> xeizlif: they probably mean "the kind that you get in the store in brown bottles", which is likely dilute for safety purposes
- [2017-11-22T04:04:44-0500] <xeizlif> yeah
- [2017-11-22T04:18:12-0500] <xeizlif> Halian: I was wrong, it's not their liver. They end up with kidney damage probably from the diuretic effects. And they will have seizures, but it seems like they're more typical adrenergic stimulant overdose symptoms given they usually end up shaking, diarrhoea and developing hyperthermia first
- [2017-11-22T04:18:49-0500] <xeizlif> so many sites that are titled "Why Chocolate is Bad for Dogs" and then end up basically saying 'Chocolate is bad for dogs.'
- [2017-11-22T04:18:57-0500] <xeizlif> without saying why at all
- [2017-11-22T04:19:14-0500] <xeizlif> or 'because theobromine'
- [2017-11-22T04:20:35-0500] <xeizlif> hard to tell but it seems like the acetylcholinesterase inhibitor and glycine antagonist effects are mostly a problem for small creatures / those that are extremely sensitive to excitotoxicity